McGuinness Blvd segment on Brian Lehrer's WNYC show (6/26/23)
Listen to the McGuinness Blvd segment on Brian Lehrer's WNYC show (6/26/23):
Transcription
Brian Lehrer 00:10 Brian Lehrer, on WNYC. You know we talked on the show sometimes about the seeming policy war of all against all regarding the rules of the road on New York City streets, right? The cars, the trucks, the bikes, the e-bikes, the scooters, and mopeds, the pedestrians, all resenting each other to some degree, while the leaders and interest groups tangle over the best ways to bring safety and also allow people to move around as they must. More than 200 people a year are dying on city streets in crashes. Well, that multi dimensional conflict is coming to a head in one part of Brooklyn, that is certainly defining for the neighbourhood, but also perhaps a kind of template debate for the whole city. It's the McGuinnesss Boulevard area of Greenpoint, where there are now competing groups called "Make McGuinness Safe" and "Keep McGuinness Moving". Journalist Gwynne Hogan has been reporting on this for the news organisation, the city grand formally of right here at WNYC. Hi, Gwynne. Thanks for coming on for this. Welcome back to the show.
Gwynne Hogan 01:13 Thanks Brian! Good to be here.
Brian Lehrer 01:14 And give people not familiar, the lay of the land, literally to start out what's McGuinness Boulevard like in Greenpoint, and geographically from where to where are we talking about?
Gwynne Hogan 01:26 Yeah, so McGuinness Boulevard is a Robert Moses era Street, it did not exist. Before that time. Several streets a street had to be bulldozed of houses sort of between basically connects multiple highways. So it becomes this kind of residential highway on either side, you have very residential Greenpoint streets, but this is a four lane street where trucks are often speeding, they're trying to get kind of between the BQE and the Long Island Expressway, you can either take it across into Queens, or you can take it across the Greenpoint Avenue Bridge and hook up with I95 that way. So it is this really, really busy street that is also pretty treacherous for pedestrians and cyclists, and motorists as well, frankly. Three people have been killed there in crashes in the past decade, according to the DOT. And all of this sort of there, for years, there had been efforts to make the streets safer, or, you know, residents have called for it and then it all sort of came to a head in 2021. When a beloved teacher at a element, an elementary school, just north of McGoldrick Park was killed on McGuinness Boulevard. And that sort of created this impetus for a lot of parents and kids at that school to organise once and for all to really push for the street to be redesigned. And that's when they formed their group. Make McGuinness safe? So sort of in the summer of 2021.
Brian Lehrer 03:04 So the city has a plan. And by the way, let me tell all our other listeners that people from Greenpoint are already flooding our phone lines before I even give out the phone number with strong opinions on this one way or another. So others in Greenpoint or anybody else who wants to ask Gwynne Hogan from the news organisation The City a question, or speak your piece 212-433 WNYC 212-433-9692, you can call or text that number. The city has a plan for a makeover of McGunness Boulevard there that has stirred up this political support and opposition, what's in the plan?
Gwynne Hogan 03:45 That's right. So the plan basically, is to go from a four-lane street down to a two-lane street. And in order to do that, the DOT wants to remove a lane of traffic on either side, maintain most of the parking and use that parking to create protected bike lanes on either side of the street. So, you know, this was a contentious plan that you know, was subject to many, many, many community board meetings where this was discussed. You know, proponents of the plan, understand that parking is an even more divisive issue in the neighbourhood. So they were like okay, like this is the compromise, right? Well keep the parking, reduce the traffic lane. And that sort of gives, you know, folks on different sides something to be happy for. And it seemed to be you know, it was going through the regular DOT community board. There were all these many meetings, the community, the community board voted for a full comprehensive redesign that they had supported this. Fast, fast forward to May, early May, where the DOT comes out with this final plan, where they're going to take down two lanes of traffic and all of a sudden this group that had formed several months ago kind of kicks into action this group called Keep McGuinness Moving. They have been, you know, papering the neighbourhood with signs. Residents have been getting mailers sent to their doors, robo calls, texts, all sort of an effort to pump the brakes on this plan and kick it back to the drawing board. You know, the proponents of the redesign say, Hey, we've been at the drawing board for two years. This is the results you know, the DOT's plan is the result of that plan. But this other group has sort of emerged to try to slow walk back the plan and kick it back.
Brian Lehrer 05:42 So there are these competing groups. Make McGuinness safe and keep McGuinness moving. And we're going to take a call from each side right now. Here's Bronwyn in Greenpoint, who called in and said identify themselves as co founder of the make McGuinness safe coalition Bronwyn, you're on WNYC. Thank you so much for calling in.
Bronwyn Breitner 06:08 Hi, Brian, thank you so much for having me and for covering this really important issue. I'm a longtime listener. first time caller. I'm an 18 year resident of Greenpoint, I'm a parent to two children who attend ces 110. And who were taught by the teacher who was killed crossing McGuinness Boulevard in 2021. I also live a block from the intersection where Matt Jensen was killed. So after Matt's tragic death, there were so many conversations in the community about, you know, the grief and the shock. And then so many people started talking about McGuinness Boulevard. And like, why is McGuinness Boulevard like this. And I want to just give a little extra context to what [it] is. McGuinness Boulevard is one mile long. This is not a massive artery that connects all of Brooklyn, it's a one mile street that's four lanes, that was built in the 50s to connect two highways. It's built to connect the BQE to the LIE. And it's a very dangerous street, the idea of those arguments to transform McGuinness started back when it was built. And there have been decades of advocacy to try and make changes. And there have been some changes, but they've been incremental. And some facts there's a there have been three deaths in the last decade on McGuinness. There's a crash every other day on McGuinness, remember, it's only a one-mile street, and there's an injury every week. So on McGuinness Boulevard as a result of those crashes, that's those are serious injuries. Because these cars have a passing lane culture, they're coming off of the highway, and they're passing each other. They're not travelling at the 25 mile or mile an hour speed limit. They're travelling like they're still on a highway. So we've realised with facts and data from the DOT, that 30 to 50% of the cars and trucks on McGuinness are using it as it was designed by Robert Moses, which is to cut through the neighbourhood. And those are not local deliveries to local businesses. They are not local trucks serving local businesses and local drivers. They're not, you know, Ubers and Lyfts, picking up local residents. They're entering at the beginning of McGuinness and exiting at the end going straight.
Brian Lehrer 08:29 Let me let me check for time and ask you one follow up question. Now we're gonna take a call from an opponent of the redesign. But what's your take as a supporter on what the opponents are really fighting against? What are their interests because it's if it's the way you just described, oh, it's just people passing through to get from one interstate to another, then they wouldn't have an organised neighbourhood coalition. But Gwynn has reported deeply on the role of the Argento family that owns Brooklyn stages. And you know, and we have seen in other neighbourhoods, local business interests opposed to some separated bike lanes because they think it's going to reduce foot traffic to their businesses, things like that. So who do you think your local opponents really are?
Bronwyn Breitner 09:21 I've canvassed, spent hundreds of hours and spoken to 1000s of residents canvassing at local farmers markets for the last two years talking to people about this. And nine times out of 10 somebody enters the conversation, saying "That's crazy! You can't take away a lane of traffic on McGuinness Boulevard. It's got so much traffic." And when you lay out the facts and the data, nine times out of 10 they'll sign our petition. So people are scared, the knee jerk reaction to hearing that is that this can't possibly work and serve our neighbourhood. But when you learn the facts and you look at the precedents like the 14th Street busway or Vanderbilt Avenue or you research and you see that retail businesses really profit from pedestrianising streets like they're doing to McGuinness Boulevard, you know, people come around and they end up supporting our campaign. So there's a lot of fear, but there also really good facts.
Brian Lehrer 10:14 And for the drivers who are actually concerned about more traffic, people who have cars in the neighbourhood who maybe live in the neighbourhood, are you saying that's a necessary evil byproduct of something that's going to be on balance a much greater good? Or you're saying no, there's not really going to be more traffic more slow? Traffic? Yeah.
Bronwyn Breitner 10:35 No, no, no, that's like, that's the biggest question. And the biggest concern after people learn that we're not taking away parking, which many people have been misled to believe that we are. The biggest concern is traffic. And the DOT has told us that the reduction in vehicles that we need to make this work is less, it's fewer, it's smaller than the amount of cut-through traffic that exists. So like Google Maps will not be rerouting people down McGuinness Boulevard any longer and traffic will rebalance.
Brian Lehrer 11:05 Interesting. Yeah, like if they're cutting through Greenpoint to get to the BQE to avoid traffic on the Kościuszko bridge, that kind of thing. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Bronwyn, thank you very much for your call, as we continue for another few minutes to talk about the conflict and the Greenpoint neighbourhood of Brooklyn, obviously, over the city's proposal to remake McGuinness Boulevard to make it safer. And the pushback that is coming from opponents of that, and how this might actually be representative of battles that are taking place or may well take place in the future at other places in the city. Our guest is journalist Gwynne Hogan has who's been reporting on this for the news organisation The City. And we just heard from a proponent of the redesign, who called in now we're gonna hear from an opponent, Lynn in Greenpoint, you're on WNYC. Hi, Lynn.
Lynn 11:59 Hi, thank you, Brian. I'm really glad that Bronwyn brought up data and the cut through traffic argument, because the data actually doesn't support this. And the there's so many problems with the final DOT report from last month. First place, it's barely 20 pages of minimal information. And they left out important data like traffic volume. And the first report they did two years ago actually had a traffic volume study from 2021. And it said, on average, there are 55,000 vehicles per day on McGuinness Boulevard. And that 30% will need to be diverted. And it even says that out of that 19,000, which is 30% of 55,000, some will go to local street, the LIE and BQE. Now, they constantly talk about this cut through traffic idea. But if you read the definition of cut through traffic in their report, it's anybody who gets on the BQE, I mean, gets on the McGuinness, just outside of Greenpoint, so people who live in East Williamsburg or people who live two blocks outside to the to the east of McGuinness, uh, of the BQE are actually considered cut through traffic. I think there are a lot of people who are in favour of this plan who don't realise that they would fall under the definition of cut through traffic. And the reality is that in all of North Brooklyn, there are only three roads to get you to Queens. Because the Newtown Creek is really long. You can get to Queens from McGuinness Boulevard to the Pulaski, McGuinness Boulevard to Greenpoint Avenue and the BQE. That's it, you have to go deep into Bushwick to get to Queens.
Brian Lehrer 13:51 So let me jump in and ask you to sort of cut to the chase here. If you accept the premise that McGuinness Boulevard, as it exists, is a hazard to everybody with the number of crashes that we heard from our guests, the reporter who by the way, Gwynne, thank you being for being patient while we listen to these callers for a while, and then I'm going to bring you back in of course, but that the data on the number of injuries that regularly take place the number of deaths in the last decade, from the current design of the street, if if you accept the premise, that it's going to be a public safety positive to do this redesign, who gets hurt enough in the neighbourhood to balance that out and not do it?
Lynn 14:38 Well, the idea that you're going to make McGuinness safe means that you're going to make all of the residential side streets much less safe, because those 19,000 vehicles that need to get diverted are going to go into some of them and they even say it in the report are going to go into these quiet residential side streets. And one of the reasons the perception of McGuinness being so dangerous is because every other street in Greenpoint is so quiet and narrow, that you could just wander across any street in most of the residential neighbourhoods in Greenpoint, and not really worry about it. But when you get to McGuinness, you actually have to pay attention. And so people have this perception, and there's such a perception being pushed. That McGuinness is so dangerous. When you know, we're talking about Pro-bike people who, you know, say nothing about Ebikes. And the fact that we've had 13 deaths by fire from ebike batteries in last six months. So it's…
Brian Lehrer 15:39 Right. Well, they're not catching fire in the middle of traffic. But you're starting to answer what was going to be my last question. I think, just as I asked the previous caller, who do you think your opposing interests are and what they really want? Who do you think your opposing interests are and what they really want?
Lynn 15:57 What we really want is to go back to the drawing board, because this DOT plan is so not backed up by data. Do you know that even I know even the people in favour,
Brian Lehrer 16:10 So who wants a bad plan? And why, in your opinion.
Lynn 16:13 Want more studies of what is the impact to the side streets and the DOT is that they do not plan to do any studies.
Brian Lehrer 16:22 Then I'm gonna leave it there. Thank you very much. All right. Gwynne Hogan, you've been extremely patient. What were you thinking? As you heard those two callers?
Gwynne Hogan 16:30 No, I mean, I think it's it this has been such a difficult story to cover because emotions are like really high. And this is like very polarising in the community. And, you know, I reported what you mentioned a little bit earlier how the Keep McGuinness Moving campaign had all these ties to the Argento family. You know, I found that there was a list of 180 businesses that supported this, the push to push the plan back to the drawing board. And they were many LLCs and incorporateds and about a third of those businesses were linked to the Argento family. But that is not to say that the Argentos are the only ones that are concerned about this plan. As you heard from Lynn, there is a very vocal part of the community that would like to see the boulevards stay the same, you know, some will say like, I'm more afraid of bicycles, you know, being hit by a bicycle on a in a protected bike lane that that was like more concerning to them than cars, even though that's not really what you know, the data about who was killed by vehicles, it's, you know, cars and trucks.
Brian Lehrer 17:49 But, you know, you've been with people, if we would open up the phones and ask, what are you more afraid of? On a day by day basis as you walk the streets as a pedestrian in New York City that you're gonna get hit by a car, that you're gonna get hit by an ebike or a scooter? I think the answer is pretty likely to be a scooter. You know, or ebike.
Gwynne Hogan 18:13 Yeah, no, I mean, it's it is really as you sort of set it up the the streets and sidewalks are this like really contentious battleground, they sort of, there's tension about like neighbourhood change that is overlaid on to this conversation about McGuinness Boulevard, you know, like a lot of anxiety about all those gigantic condo buildings going up on the on the shoreline that have nothing to do with McGuinness Boulevard. And yet, you know, when you talk to somebody about why they don't want the street redesign, that's like the third thing they'll say to you. So and there's a lot of very legitimate anxiety about neighbourhood change in Greenpoint, as there are in many neighbourhoods across the city. So this has become sort of this like really divisive lightning rod where there's arguments spilling out on the side.
Brian Lehrer 18:58 And I want the listeners to know that your reporting in the city has focused on the role of the powerful Argento family in helping to organise the opposition. In short, they own a lot of the soundstage industry in Brooklyn. Why would a protected bike lane and fewer car lanes or the way the traffic might be rerouted hurt them? Why did the Argento scare. Why does the soundstage industry care?
Gwynne Hogan 19:27 That is a very good question. I mean, you know one of the issues that this touches on I think is this McGuinness Boulevard is like a very big connector for North Brooklyn's Industrial Business Zone, which the Argentos own a lot of property in. They own dozens and dozens of soundstages across North Brooklyn, Long, uh, Greenpoint, in Long Island City. And their trucks are coming in and out of the neighbourhood. They have to get around. They're not the only trucks obviously, there's lots of other industrial businesses. is in this zone, and we saw other trucking companies come out in opposition to this plan, because I think there's a concern that it will slow down traffic and it'll be harder for them to get where they're trying to go. You know, I heard from there's a North Brooklyn, it's called Evergreen exchange, they advocate for industrial businesses, and they had voiced concerns. And they'd mentioned one client that was like, you know, we mix cement, and it's going to take us five minutes longer to mix cement. And then like, you know, when we get it's going to be dry when we get it to the client. So, you know, there has been a lot of advocacy over many years for industrial business zones in this area, because of the importance of blue collar, you know, middle class jobs that these types of businesses can provide. You know, the counterpoint is the DOT has put bike lanes on many truck routes, and, you know, with, you know, success, not slowing down the traffic tremendously. So that's what the DOT will sort of push back to that, you know, if you look at Kent Avenue in Williamsburg, that's a truck route that has a bike lane on it, and you know, trucks are going up and down. Or just one way I guess it's a one way street. It's not two way, but But yeah.
Brian Lehrer 21:13 Yeah. And the local business, does your report indicate that the merchants are actually concerned about business? I happened to walk this weekend up Eighth Avenue in Manhattan from 42nd Street to Columbus Circle, and there's a protected bike lane there. But there is parking outside the barrier between the bike lane and the street. And thinking about the McGuinness Boulevard conflict, I saw the sidewalks were jammed with pedestrians, no shortage of foot traffic and plenty of open stores along the way. I mean, it's a very unscientific observation, and Eighth Avenue in Manhattan is not Greenpoint. But it sure didn't seem like a protected bike lane was keeping people from walking around and shopping. So I'm just curious if that is part of the argument, or… not.
Gwynne Hogan 22:00 McGuinness is actually not that commercial. There are some pockets where it's commercial, but it's mostly there's, there's definitely businesses along there's like a few restaurants, but it's not like a that, like it's not it's a lot of residences, mostly, and industrial businesses. So I've definitely heard. Yeah, I mean, I've heard you know, some of the concerns from businesses that I have heard is more about transporting their items to the location or, or the industrial businesses that are sort of nearby.
Brian Lehrer 22:34 All right. So many callers and so little time, here's what we're gonna do. Callers, and I'm gonna hold you to it. We're gonna do a 30 second speed round, and take three more calls on various sites. Stephanie in Greenpoint. You're on WNYC. Stephanie apologies. And in advance, give it your best 30 seconds.
Stephanie 22:55 Will do, thank you, Brian. Yeah, so I live about one block from McGuinness. I drive a bus, I've driven a bike, I've walked it. I want to talk about daylighting I live right on Eagle Street. If you go up to Eagle Street onto McGuinness, you're gonna notice that there's a completely blind way to merge, where everything merges into one place. It's incredibly dangerous. It's incredibly hard to drive into that. It's incredibly hard to bike into that. And you never really know who's coming. I'm really excited for the daylighting that's gonna be coming up and down McGuinness Boulevard, because it's going to [inaudible] to walk their bikes there.
Brian Lehrer 23:31 Stephanie, thank you very much, John in Greenpoint with apologies. Give it your best 30 seconds, then I'm gonna move on.
John 23:41 Hey, Brian, how you doing? I'm a cyclist, I drive for work in the area. I think the proposed design was rushed. I think that there wasn't proper representation in Community Board One, the activist group Transportation Alternatives totally steamrolled members of the community that wanted to you know, put their feedback about the design and how it's going to cause a traffic nightmare. It's a vital artery and there's industrial businesses that need to be fed, my friends work at Broadway Stages said this is going to be a nightmare they have to get deliveries all throughout the day. It's just a terrible plan, members of the community were rug pulled by Bronwyn, Kevin LaCherra, all the activists that swarm Community Board One and claim [...]
Brian Lehrer 24:18 do you think they're just trying to make it as good for bicyclist as they possibly can? And don't care enough about everybody else? Is that what you're arguing?
John 24:28 No, I think their ultimate goal is to jam up the city to the point where people give up their cars and it's just not realistic.
Brian Lehrer 24:34 And John, I'm gonna leave it there, on that kind of hot take point. And the last 30 seconds is going to go to the council member who represents the area in city council who was also calling in, that's how many calls and types of calls this segment is bringing out. Councilmember Lincoln Restler, you're on WNYC, hello. We've got 30 seconds for you but you'll get the last word.
Lincoln Restler 25:00 Thank you so much, Brian. You know, I'm really proud that there's been such a robust, robust and rigorous community engagement process over the last couple of years to develop this plan, and every single elected official at the city, state and federal level that represents Greenpoint has proudly supported the Make McGuinness Safe plan. It's all about safety. We have a serious crash every week. The status quo is literally hurting, even killing our neighbours. We have to make real changes. And by reducing a lane of traffic in each direction, we can knit the Greenpoint community back together.
Brian Lehrer 25:31 What do you say to the last caller, who believes that the bicycle advocates are just trying to make drivers so frustrated that they give up their cars?
Lincoln Restler 25:40 I don't think that this is, that's not what this is about. This is about making our neighbourhoods safe. And I have friends who have suffered serious injuries on McGuinness Boulevard. This plan unifies the Greenpoint community, the industrial businesses that are concerned are going to be okay. The turning radiuses for trucks remain the same. There are commercial loading zones for businesses to have deliveries on every single block of McGuinness. I think there's a lot of anxiety and a lot of concern. But at the end of the day, this is a plan that will finally Make McGuinness Safe.
Brian Lehrer 26:12 We will see what happens. City council member Lincoln Restler, thank you for calling in. Gwynne Hogan is reporting on this for the nonprofit news organisation The City. By the way, Gwynne, who who decides and when, finally?
Gwynne Hogan 26:25 So the DOT says it is considering the community feedback that you know was at this there was a big town hall two weeks ago at a held at Broadway Stages, owned by the Argentos. There was after that a big march in the streets and then a public bike ride, proponents of the changes. So the DOT says it's making it's taking that into consideration. And it has said that the repainting will start this summer so I don't exactly know when that is but I'll obviously be watching.
Brian Lehrer 26:57 All right. Well, it could be soon! Gwynne, thanks a lot for coming on.